Joseph George Downes

[Bob Downes]

Mike

I’ve been researching my paternal grandfather Lance Corporal Joseph George Downes.

I have managed to track down most of the information – from the information provided by the CWGC I have established that he served in the 2nd Battalion Worcestershire Regiment, service No. 14921.

His death is given as 21st May 1917 so I presume that he died during the attack on the Hindenburg Line.

The only information I seem to be lacking is when he enlisted and what, given that he lived in Bethnal Green in London, was he doing in the Worcestershire Regiment? I remember reading somewhere that a detachment of men were transferred from the Essex Regiment sometime around that time, is this correct and could he have been one of them.

Bob Downes

[LarsA]

Bob,
I have an MM awarded to a man that was in the samt btn, probably awarded for the actions at Croisilles, near Arras on the 20th/21st May 1917. I also have an extract of Stackes excellent history of the Worcesters that give some details on this. Give me your email ( lars.ahlkvist@moderat.se ) and you'll get something back in the next few days if you haven't got the information already.
Kind regards,
Lars

The short version:
On May 2oth-21st 1917 the 2nd Worcesters were in action at Croissilles, near Arras. (In the official list of engagements named 'Actions on the Hindenburg Line, may 20th-june 16th') Nearly half of the fighting strength of the battalion had fallen. They had held their ground unsupported against enemy attacks for 20 hours, being relieved by the 2nd RWF.

[Mike Jones]

Hello Bob,
You have used the best keys to unlock my Data-base ! Which are a proper name and a general location. That is a hint to others, who dont. I am not into those Avatars (Whatever they mean). The first thing with your grandfather is the name. The CWGC have entered him on the Arras Memorial to the Missing as Joseph G Downes. Soldiers Died and the Medal Rolls have spelt him as Downs. Is it Downes on his birth certificate? I had him as Downs, I have now changed it to Downes ! Do you have his Medals? What does it say on them, Please? It was normal for men from London to join the Worcestershire Regiment. London was the 2nd highest source for volunteers. Up to the time your grandfather volunteered, which was around 20th August 1914. Birmingham was the biggest source of our men, 27% of the 2nd Bn. came from there. Followed by 9.26% from London, only 4% came from Worcester. I suspect he joined with at least 2 others from London. James Collins was 14919 and he enlisted at Finsbury, London. I cant find out who 14920 was but my quess is he was a Londoner too. Have you PlumPudding your grandfather's Medal Index Card yet? I would be very interested to have a copy in my collection, please. I will tell you all about his number and transfers, in my next posting after you reply to this one.
Regards Mike

[Bob Downes]

Mike

I was very surprised that you could reply to my posting so quickly - thanks!

My grandfather's name was Joseph George Downes (with an e). I haven't got a copy of his birth certificate, it;'s one of a number of documents I'm hoping to get when I go to the Family Records Centre in Islington, hopefully later on this week.

One error I made in my previous message was I said he came from Bethnal Green, that should be Upper Clapton as recorded in the IWGC record. It happened because I'm having even more trouble with my maternal grandfather who died of TB in 1926 and I'm trying to establish whether he ever enlisted.

I'm afraid I don't have his medals - I don't know what happened to them.

I have not been able to locate his Medal Index Card as yet - I'll have to have another go.

Thanks again for your help.

regards

Bob

[scully]

Hi Bob,

His medal index card is listed using the surname DOWNS.

I have a bit of information for you below:
He enlisted at Shoreditch, London.
Married Elizabeth Mary A. Garaty in 1911 at Shoreditch, London.

If you get a copy of his medal index card it should tell you a little more.

Let us know what you find.

Regards,

Louis

[Bob Downes]

Mike and Louis

I've now managed to get hold of a copy of his Medal Index Card - as you said it lists his surname as Downs.

It's not easy to access this data - thank God for your advice in your posting "Researching Great War Soldiers". Before I read this I just went round and round on the National Archives website.

How can I send a copy to you?

It says that the first theatre of war he served was the Balkans with a date of 4/7/1915. Does this sound right? If so then I've some more investigating to do!

regards

Bob

[LarsA]

Does the Medal Index Card perhaps say "2b Balkans"? If so, it indicates service in Gallipoli, I think the Worcesters had two battalions there (4th & 9th if I remember correctly, but I can be mistaken)

/Lars

[Bob Downes]

Lars

Yes, the MIC does say 2b Balkans.

I was wondering if this did mean Gallipoli or whether it was just a name for the battalion.

I've been having a look on firstworldwar.com and there are maps there but they're a bit vague about the Regiments taking part.

In 1970 I was on holiday travelling around Turkey and I took a couple of photos of the Gallipoli battlefield. I'll scan them into my computer and then can make them available to anyone who's interested if you'll give me an e-mail address I can attach them to.

regards

Bob

[scully]

Bob,

You can send a copy of the medal index card and any photos you took to me at:
webmaster@worcestershireregiment.com

Do you also have a photo of L/Cpl. Joseph George Downes you can send.

regards,

Louis (webmaster)

[Bob Downes]

Louis

I have just e-mailed the MIC for Joseph Downes plus the Gallipoli 35mm photos I promised. They're not brilliant but they are nearly 40 years old.

I'm afraid that I don't have a photo - photos from both sides of my family do seem to be in very short supply!

regards

Bob

[scully]

Thanks Bob.

Regards,

Louis

[Mike Jones]

Hi Bob,
That was a good result for £3-50. Your Medal Index Card opens up a whole new chapter. So Joseph Downes was in the 9th Battalion before he was in the 2nd. I say the 9th because all the numbers around his were also in the 9th. Remember James Collins 14919 ? He Died of Wounds at Gallipoli on 12th August 1915 and he was 9th Bn. Collins and your G/Father must have been pals. The date of entry into a theatre of war fits as well. The 9th bn. left England on the 24th June and the date given for your G/Father entering was the 4th July 1915. I think your G/Father was either wounded or became sick, as the 9th Bn. never returned to England after Gallipoli. They became known as the "Wandering 9th", all over Mesepotamia, Baku, Russia. etc. After he got well he was moved to the 2nd Bn. There is a man called Allan Parry who is going through all the casualty lists. It is a mammoth task and will take at least a year but he may well come up with more details. So keep checking the website for updates.
Your G/Father was NOT transferred from any other regiment. He volunteered for the Worcesters. If he had been transferred he would have been in a different sequence of numbers, used for just such a purpose. Up until 1916 a man could choose which regiment he joined. After that the "Act of Service" came in and choice was no longer an option. I think that has cleared up most points, any thing else let me know.
Regards Mike

[Bob Downes]

Gentlemen

I have collated all the information received both from yourselves and other sources and circulated it round my family.

Lo and behold one of my cousins lent me a photograph of Joseph George!

It doesn't show him in uniform but shows a rather rakish young man of somewhat Errol Flynn appearance. :O)

I've just e-mailed a copy for you to add to your archives.

regards

Bob Downes

[allanp]

Hi Bob

PRIVATE 14921 J. G. DOWNS 9th Battalion is reported as wounded in the Worcester Herald on the 9 October 1915. There is no other references to him during 1915. He obviously was promoted to Lanc Cpl later.

Regards Allan

[Bob Downes]

Allan

Thanks for that - I'll have to go to Worcester and see if I can dig out that newspaper report.

I have the notification that he was reported as "Missing" dated 3rd September 1915 and one dated 6th September that he had been wounded - "bullet wound - severe on 30.8.1915" and that he was then in the 2 Voluntary Aid Hospital in Exeter.

I also intend to go to Bethnal Green sometime soon to see if his name appears on one of the war memorials there.

I continue to be amazed by the wealth of information which has become known about a man who, after all, was just an ordinary soldier.

Bob