Worcester Cathedral Embarkation Rolls - August 1914

[corona]

Mike,
I have in my records a very short list of Worcester Regt. POWs up to 25/12/ 1914.
Most are 3rd Batt. men but lists two 2nd Batt.
8945 PTE.JOHN JONES ( MIC and PENSION PAPERS on ANCESTRY)
France 13/8/14 Born Birmingham Age on enlistment ,19 Nov.1904 , was 18 yrs 3 months ,Trade Labourer.
Wounded 31/10/1914 and taken POW.He would be one ofthe JONES on the Cathedral list.
He was a recalled Reservist and had been awarded the DELHI DURBAR MEDAL.
9723 PTE. THOMAS MUGGERIDGE (MIC AND MILITIA PAPERS)
France 12/8/1914 POW date unknown.
Details from his S.STAFFS. MILITIA PAPERS
Born Birmingham ,Age on enlistment 17 and 11months on Oct.1905 Trade BRASS POLISHER.
Transferred and joined the Worcesters 2/1/1906 or 2/11 1906? (difficult to read) Not on the Cathedral List?
corona.

[Mike Jones]

Hi Corona,
I have been trying to reply to each post in order but the trail may cold. I decided to reply to this one immediatly. Part of this Addendum Roll was see how many of these men who started at the beginning of the war, ended it in one piece having been a Worcestershire soldier on active service throughout. Until your last posting both these men (Jones 8945 and Muggeridge 9723) had the "Magic" code letter "F" against their name. They have now lost it. So many thanks once again for your help. I do have John Jones 8945 as 2C/R 718 and 2S/R 618. However, there always seems to be a however. Thomas Muggeridge 9723 is on the 3rd Bn. Cathedral Roll 3C/R 858 and 3S/R 797. I hope I am not telling Grannie how to suck eggs but if you look at Muggeridges Medal Index Card, for his 1914 star the reference is L/2/5 , which is 3rd Bn.. The 2nd Bn. is L/2/3. I understand that your records say he is 2nd Bn. but it seems some men have switched Battalions in the chaos of the retreat. I wonder how many more men on your prisoner list I have an "F" (Finishing) against?
Many thanks Mike

[beardie]

6039pte edgar williams

from one of the birmingham newspapers

pte edgar williams 3rd worcesters ,killed in action at plaegstreert on the 9th november . his home was powke lane blackheath. he was a reservist , and previous to the outbreak of the war he was employed at messers stewarts and lloyds, coombs wood tube works, halesowen. he leaves a widow but no children. he served in the south african war and was in india for several years.

rowley regis council roll of honour blackheath ward lists him killed the 7th and living at 11 powke lane

[peter]

Mick,

From Worcester Daily Times Saturday September 5th 1914.
Cpl. 11130 W. Berry 3rd Bn.
Herbert Hospital, Wolwich.

Peter

[allanp]

Hi Mike

Further information on Cpl Berry. It may be of interest to Peter as well.

From the Bromsgrove & Droitwich Messenger 12th September 1914 edition

The Fighting at Mons

Wounded Worcester Returns

Cpl Berry who was injured whilst with the 3rd Worcesters at the now famous battle around Mons, was interviewed at Norton Barracks on Sunday by a representative of the Worcester Daily Times. Corpl Berry, who has happily mainly recovered from his wounds-two gun shots in the hip – spoke cheerfully of the prospect of returning to the front. Corpl Berry, who is a South African by birth, enlisted at Wyunberg, and he is twice wounded in the South African War. The 3rd Worcestershire, it will be remembered was attached to the 7th Brigade, which was part of the 3rd Division. Together with the Lancasters, the Irish Rifles and the Wilts, they were in the hottest part of the fight. Corpl Berry says that the Worcesters were engaged incessantly from the morning of last Sunday week until the following Wednesday evening. The British Force numbered only about 24,000 men and they were opposed to 115,000 Germans. Corpl Berry would not be drawn to say much about the actual fighting, but from a short conversation with him it easy gatherd that the conflict must have been terrible. The battle front, he said, extended along 20 miles of country. During those four days the British retired 20 miles, but, as has been stated by the militart authorities, this strategical retirement was carried out in perfect order. One was able to gather from him that our Forces behaved bravely throughout. Asked about the Germans, he said that their artillery was very heavy and correct, but their infantry were useless. Corpl Berry was hurt at Cambrai, being struck by shots from a machine gun, both nearly in the same place. He was picked up by the Royal Army Medical Corps, and after being for two days in an ambulance, was taken to the coast, and sent to England. Excepting for a slight limp, he is almost well. In fact, he is remarkably well, but has a tired, strained look due to the exposure. Corpl Berry has a fortnight’s furlough, after which he hopes to be in the thick of it again.

5th June 1915 edition Worcester Herald

Fort Pitt Military Hospital, Chatham
11130 Sergt W. Berry - 1st Battalion - Sick

15th July 1916 edition Worcester Herald
Died of Wounds
11130 Sergt W. H. Berry - Ramsgate.

Regards Allan

[peter]

Hi Allan

Many thanks for the extra information on Berry.

Regards

Peter

[Mike Jones]

Hi Steve,
Thank you for your input and interest. I do have Pte. Charles Brettle 8068 on my Roll. He is 2C/R entry 294 and 2S/R entry 46. His death is covered in Stacke page 21. In the Regimental Archives they have a handwritten book of where some men of the 2nd Bn. were originally buried. Brettle is in there ! He was originally “Buried about 6yds. from the north west corner of a wall outside the farm of La Cour de Moines” . He was a particularly unlucky man. The 2nd Bn. had done all the retreating from Mons, then turned on the advance, making the Germans retreat. No rest, no food, no sleep, death all around. Finally the 2nd Bn. were taken off the Aisne heights and rested about 6 miles behind our front lines at the Farm Le Cour de Moines. Rest, food, clean clothes, sleep. Then the German long range guns shelled the farm and Brettle was the only man killed. The main house was blown up with 12 officers inside and none was hurt.
Pte. Benjamin Chance 10121 is also on the Roll. 2C/R entry 354 and 2S/R 223.. All your information has been attached to the Roll, thanks.
However your third man (Harry Lime) actually Pte Edgar Williams 6039 of the 3rd Bn. is not on the Cathedral Roll. He landed on 7th Sept , so would not be included anyway. He is of course on the 3S/R entry 1325.
Many Thanks Mike
P.S. I had to do a quick edit, I had Pte Williams 6039 in the 2nd Bn., sorry.

[beardie]

sorry mike about williams didnt check his mic

5270 albert edward payne ,aston news newspaper

NECHELLS
Death of private payne- an employee of messers booth's , argyle street, pte a.e. payne aged 38 years, of the 3rd worcestershire regiment, has been officially notified as killed . He has been been missing since october last year.he had been in the army 16 years and went through the south african war. his widow lives at 10, sherborne grove , ladywood

[beardie]

7288 j.t price from the county express newspaper

PENSNETT MINER KILLED IN ACTION

yesterday week mr edwin price of white house, fenns pool, pensnett, received official intimation that his eldest son. corporal john t. price had been killed in action at ploegstreert on november 7th. corporal price was a reservist and attached to the worcesters. he was recalled to the colours in the first days of august, and was early sent to the fighting line, where he remained until the time of his death. deceased was up to the time of rejoining the colours in the employ of messers parrish and co. as a miner, and was well respected in pensnett area. he was a splendid shot. he had assisted his father on many occasions in saving life in the pensnett district from pools and canals. mr price has been the recipent of many letters of sympathy, and desires to thank all for their expressions. the deceased soldier was married, and leaves a widow and three children.

[corona]

Hi Mike,
A 2nd Batt. man, not on the Cathedral Roll,as he arrived in France 9/9/1914 but still of interest.
7754 PTE. HARRY SMITH was a recalled reservist and posted to the 2nd Batt. From Kidderminster,a creeler in a carpet company,he joined the 3rd Batt. 17/4/1903.
His Sevice Papers state that he was wounded at GHELUVELT 31/10/1914.
In his statement to the pensions medical board, describing how he was wounded in France,he tells how ,on Oct. 31st. 1914 ,he was wounded by shrapnel
in the arm and leg and by falling in of a trench and sustaining injuries to his back.
Regards,
corona

[Mike Jones]

Morning Peter and Allan,
Thanks for the input on Cpl. William Berry 11130. I do have him down on 3rd Bn. Cathedral Roll. He is 3 C/R entry 313 and he is on 3 S/R entry 91. He did not last too long in France, did he? Landed on 12th August and was back in Herbert Hospital before 5th Sept. with machine gun wounds. They made them tough then, two weeks later he is up and about. He died in Nigeria and is buried with five others in Zungeru. I looked it it up on the CWGC site. Its worth a look, information and foto of the cemetery. Looks bleak.
I am a bit intrigued, Peter? Of all the men you have in your records, how did he come to the top?
Many thanks Mike

[grandsonchris]

Pte Alfred Thomas Howells - 2nd Worcestershire Reg 8140

[Mike Jones]

Hi Chris,
You are the first blood relation to come forward to ensure your relatives details are correctly recorded on the Cathedral Embarkation Roll, thanks. But did you know that you have TWO blood relations in the Rolls? Pte Alfred Howells 8140 (Your Grandfather) is 2 C/R entry 665 and 2 S/R entry 514. His elder brother Pte William Howells 8139 (Your Grand-Uncle) is 3 C/R entry 676 and 3 S/R entry 514.
I am almost certain that Pte. L.J.Howells 22563 and Pte. Percy Howells 19943 were their cousins, both of these men died in the war.
I have not researched Alfred or William fully (sorry) but I am sure they joined in January 1904. They probably signed on for six years as Regulars and six on Reserve. Both got mobilised in August 1914. It must have pissed them off to be sent to different Battalions. William was captured early on in the war and was still a prisoner of war in 1918. There is no sign of your grandfather, Alfred, being discharged until after the war ended. Though I can’t find a service record for him, a soldier’s discharge is usually marked on his Medal Index Card and there is nothing on Alfred’s. His 12 years were up in January 1916 and he could have left the Army under the terms of his enlistment. But I do not think he did. Maybe Corona could dig up something from their past? He has knack of uncovering things I cant.
Regards Mike

[Mike Jones]

Hi Steve,
Thank you for your postings on 11th January.
Pte John Thomas Price 7288 is 3 C/R 943 and 3 S/R entry 877. He is yet another recalled reservist that was sent over in August 1914. It is noticeable already just how many reservists made up the ranks of the fighting battalions. Where were the Regulars ? Do you have his age please? I have been putting in each man’s age as it would have been in 1914. Most men were in their 30’s. Very few young men so far.
Also correctly recorded is Pte. Albert Edward Payne 5270, He is 3 C/R entry 905 and 3 S/R entry 873. Again he is a recalled Reservist ! Did he get any Boer war medals, please? Not so correctly recorded was his death. Soldiers Died and the Medal Rolls say it was 13.10.1914 but CWGC has on his headstone 20.10.1914. His family had the agony of waiting many months for definite news. The newspaper report you quote from says he “Has been missing since October last year”. Imagine the hope and then the pain all his family went through.
Regards Mike

[grandsonchris]

Mike Jones wrote:
> Hi Chris,
> You are the first blood relation to come forward to ensure
> your relatives details are correctly recorded on the Cathedral Embarkation
> Roll, thanks. But did you know that you have TWO blood relations in the
> Rolls? Pte Alfred Howells 8140 (Your Grandfather) is 2 C/R entry 665 and 2
> S/R entry 514. His elder brother Pte William Howells 8139 (Your
> Grand-Uncle) is 3 C/R entry 676 and 3 S/R entry 514.
> I am almost certain that Pte. L.J.Howells 22563 and Pte. Percy Howells
> 19943 were their cousins, both of these men died in the war.
> I have not researched Alfred or William fully (sorry) but I am sure they
> joined in January 1904. They probably signed on for six years as Regulars
> and six on Reserve. Both got mobilised in August 1914. It must have pissed
> them off to be sent to different Battalions. William was captured early on
> in the war and was still a prisoner of war in 1918. There is no sign of
> your grandfather, Alfred, being discharged until after the war ended.
> Though I can’t find a service record for him, a soldier’s discharge is
> usually marked on his Medal Index Card and there is nothing on Alfred’s.
> His 12 years were up in January 1916 and he could have left the Army under
> the terms of his enlistment. But I do not think he did. Maybe Corona could
> dig up something from their past? He has knack of uncovering things I cant.
> Regards Mike

Mike many thanks for this.

William and Alf were born on Boraston near Tenbury Wells they also had two sisters. Later Alf worked as a Shephard in Church Stretton before joining up in 1904.

Confirmation that William was a POW to 1918 helps answer another question for me as there is a William Howells on the Roll of Honour albeit with a diffrent number 9601.I was wondering if they could have been the same man. In 1911 Alf was working as a 'boots' a the Raven Hotel in Droitwich, William worked as a farm labourer nr Tenbury had a family. I will try and track the other two to see if they were relaions.

As far as Alfred was conserned I still have open questions. I have been told he was listed as missing in action in the Birmingham Daily Post on 5th Jan 1915, reported from base on 26th Nov 1914. I have a photo of him in uniform ? captioned 'Gallant Charge - One of the 2nd Wor: Boys at Ganvault' ? post Gheluvelt so he have must have got back to his regiment. Now we go into family legend. It is said he was badly gassed at some point and returned to the UK to recover. It is probable that he was sent to the hospital at Kinmel Camp nr Rhyl North Wales. Here he may have met my grandmother who was working ath the Queens hotel but I seem to remember she may have nursed him at some time and this is how they got together. Alf went on to work at the Queens Hotel as 'boots' at some time. I also have a photo of him outside the Queens hotel next to a carnaval float in 1922. This was just before he moved to my grandmothers home village in Wawickire a to marry. There he lived out the rest of his life working as a gardner and odd work man. There are few living relatives to confirm what happened to Alf between 1914 and 1922.

Without the amy record I have been trying to find out what happend to the men of the 2nd Worcs after Gheluvet to get an idea of when are where Alf may have een gassed. He also seems to have had some connection with the Royal Welsh Fuseliers and or the Kings Shropshire Light Infantry whilst in Rhyl - could he have transfered to one of these regiments? This question has been the subjetc of another post on the forum.

Any comments you could make would be a big help. Thanks..........Chris