2nd Battalion Drafts (Gheluvelt Roll in mind)

[Mike Jones]

Hi Andy,
I usually leave it to Peter to reply on this section, since it is his "Baby" and he is doing almost all of the work. However, I think he is on holiday AGAIN. You also seem to have an interest in Gheluvelt, this is the 2nd man you have enquired about, that may be on the Gheluvelt Roll.
You have the correct details but are not understanding them clearly. Private Thomas Robinson 9271 did land in France 26th (Not 28th) August 1914, with 42 other men of the 2nd Bn. It took them until 5th September to find and join the 2nd Bn.. I am still amazed that re-inforcements found the intended main body of men. It just shows that it was not all a chaotic retreat from Mons. You imagine the problem. You are trying to find a group of men, moving generally south on a daily basis. No fixed route or timetable, no fones. I do not know how they managed it but they did. So the date of a draft was when it arrived at the Battalion, not landing in France or wherever.
Regards Mike

[peter]

Hi Andy,

I can only confirm the information Mike has posted. During the Retreat from Mons on the 5th September the 2nd Battalion Worcesters were ordered to retire and marched back independently in rearguard formation through La Celle, across the Grand Morin river and through Mortcerf and La Housssaye to Marles. It was at Marles that the Battalion received the first reinforcements of about 90 men under the command of Captain J.P.L. Stoney, Private 9271 Thomas Robinson being one of them.
Th 2nd Battalion Worcestershire Regiment had sailed for France on 13th August split into two half Battalions one consisting of Headquarters Company, 'A' Company, 'B' Company Machine Gun Section and Headquarters Detail on the Lake Michigan and 'C' Copany, 'D' Company, Transport Officer, Quarter Master and Headquarters Detail on the Herschel, in all just over 1000 officers and men.
Regards

Peter

[dhonychurch]

Hello to the Worcestershire Regiment,

I have been reading with great interest about the project to identify all those of the Worcestershire Regiment who were in the charge on the Gheluvelt Chateau and its grounds.

I would like to submit the name of an original August 1914 lander, who because of his rank, probably did not take part in the assault, but possibly could have.

His name is Charles George Gadsby, Regimental Number 9035, Rank - Sjt. Drummer. He was not a young man at this time, having served at the Battle of Omdurman with the Grenadier Guards as a Pte, Regimental Number 4207. For this action he was awarded the Queen's Sudan Medal and the Khedive's Sudan Medal. During the Great War he was commissioned as a Quartermaster Officer, his BWM and VM being named to Q.M & Lieut. Additionally he earned a GV LSGC which is named to him as 9035 Sjt. Dmr, Worc: Rgt.

Since he appears to have served into the 1920s, his officer's papers do not yet seem to be available. His Medal Index Card is full of writing as is common with those indicating commissioned service. If you wish to see his MIC and I can figure out how to send it to you I will do so.

With regards,

Doug Honychurch

[peter]

Hi Doug

Your man is on our list but as yet we have not been able to confirm if he was at Gheluvelt. It is noted that he was promoted to Lieutenant but we have no further information about him and I was very interested to see your posting with all the information regarding his pre war service. Thank you for your offer to send his MIC but in the first instance I will try to obtain it from Ancestry tomorrow but if I fail then I will take you up on your offer. I will also try to get his service records again from Ancestry and maybe we will be able to confirm if he was at Gheluvelt. I will post any new information I may get tomorrow evening.

Regards

Peter

[peter]

Hi Doug,

I now have a copy of Charles George Gadsby's MIC PlumPudding from Ancestery but had no success with his service records from either British Army WW1 Pension/Service Records 1914-1920. I did find a birth for a Charles George Gadsby, September quarter 1879 Wandsworth and also a marriage, December quarter 1903, could these be your Charles? Also 1881 census gives a Charles G. Gadsby 127 Church Road, Battersea, Surrey aged 1, Father was William aged 32 a gardener and his mother was Fanny aged 33 who was born in Melbourne, Derby. He had two older brothers, Thomas and Herbert W. Also living at or visiting at the time of the census was Fanny's mother Selina Wright. Could this be Charles?

One last find on the National Roll of the Great War, London (West, Central and North London) is an entry for C G Gadsby, but I don't have a copy of this but will try and get this information from my central library or try the Great War Forum.

Can I ask where did your other information come from regarding his service with the Grenadier Guards and being at the battle of Omdurman etc?

Regards

Peter

[Andy Horton]

Dear Peter and Mike
Many apologies for taking so long to thank you for replying to my query re 2 btn drafts.
However I hope the wait is worth while as I have 4 men all 2nd btn, who might have been at Gheluvelt.
1. 9343 Pte John Harris entered France 12August 1914 Killed in Action 26th September 1915. I have his mic and service papers If you would like them.
2. 9271 Pte Thomas Robinson entered France 26th August 1914 Killed in Action with 10th Btn 4th February 1917 only have his mic as papers not available on Ancestry yet.
3. 10420Pte Frederick Smith entered France 12th August, only have his mic but survived the war. I have a photograph of him aswell.
4. 12846Pte Laban Harris entered France 12th August 1914. Entitled to SWB discharged 13th July 1915. Enlisted 5th January 1912 from Abbots Morton. Papers not available yet from Ancestry.

If you would like copies of all the paperwork I have on these four men I would be more than happy to send it to you.
Regards
Andy

[dhonychurch]

Dear Peter,

Thanks for the updated information. I have C.G. Gadsby's medal group, which includes the medals I mentioned previously. I also have the medals, bought separately, to a man I believe was his brother; Arthur Gadsby. His 1914/15 Trio came with his Soldier's Small Book which indicated service with the Grenadier Guards in the early 1900's. Listed among Arthur's siblings were two brothers; one serving in the Grenadier Guards and another; Charles, serving as a drummer in the Worcestershire Regiment. Based upon the Census information as found on Ancestry, it would appear they were all of the same family.

However, to date, although I have a court mounted medal group all named to the same man, albeit in two regiments, and substantial circumstantial evidence that the same man belonged to two regiments, I do not have irrefutable proof that the C.G. Gadsby who served in the Grenadier Guards is the same C.G. Gadsby who served as a Sjt. Drummer in the Worcestershire Regiment. Only when his service papers are released, assuming that they were not destroyed, will we know for sure whether there were one or two C.G. Gadsbys who served in the British Army from the end of the 19th Century until at least the early 1920s.

With regards,

Doug Honychurch

[peter]

Hi Doug

Just had a reply from my posting on the Great War Forum and the CG Gadsby on the National Roll, London is not Charles.

Regards

Peter

[peter]

Hi Andy


Thanks for your reply. 9343 John Harris was time exspired in September 1914 so was not at Gheluvelt. He rejoined in November 1914 (2nd Battalion Worcesters). The other three we are still searching for information so can't confirm them as yet.

Thanks for your offer to send copies of paper work but to save you any trouple I can get the information from my local library and down load from Ancestry but the photograh of Frederick Smith would be most welcome and a real bonus. My email is peter.t.rose@btinternet.com

Regrds

Peter

[dhonychurch]

Dear Peter,

Thanks for your interest in Charles Gadsby and the effort you have put forth in researching his background. Hopefully his papers will become available soon.

Here is another 2nd Worcester man who went to France with the battalion as an "original": 12887 Pte. C. DWYER. He died in Salonika in 1917 serving with the 11th Battalion Worcester Regiment, so I am assuming that he was at some time wounded while serving with the 2nd Battalion and was sent to the 11th Battalion as a replacement after he had recovered from his wounds.

With regards,

Doug

[peter]

Hi Doug

Pte Charles Dwyer born in Fulham and enlisted in Kingston-on-Thames is on the list but again not enough evidence to corfirm that he was at Gheluvelt. The list cotains about 1600 names and it is a long way from being the finished article but all information received brings it a little nearer to completion (well one day I hope). Ancestry is a great help but still lots of service records not available and thanks to a german bomb in WWII a lot of records were destroyed (my Grandfathers included it would seem).

If I come up with any further details on Charles I will post them on this forum.

Regards

Peter

[Mike Jones]

Morning All,
My question is aimed really at Lars (Our Swedish Medal/Military expert) but I have put it on here for a general "Airing". The question concerns medals but involves our Gheluvelt project.
In the 1965 copy of the Regimental magazine was a list of known survivors of the Gheluvelt charge. One man on the list is Pte. Albert Patton 28124. He does have a 1914 Star, having landed in August 1914. Lars, please have a look at his Medal Index card. The Star appears to have been won with another Regiment ! So he can NOT have been at Gheluvelt. Your thoughts would be much appreciated by Peter and myself.
By way of a general appeal, if anyone has any evidence that a relative or someone you are researching was in the Gheluvelt charge, please take one pace forward and let us know.
Thanks in anticipation Mike

[Andy Horton]

Dear Peter and Mike

Have looked at Pattons mic and service record (which is an education in itself!!!!) points of note are. I am still not sure of his regiment in 1914 BUT:
1. Pte Pattons award of the 1914 clasp is confirmed by the Worcester records. Normally the awarding Regiment has those details.
2. The service records do not accurately depict when Patton transferred to the Worcestershire Regiment.

As His 1914 service is not tabled with either regiment, except he was posted to Army reserve 31st August this is crossed out with the first definite contact with the Worcestershire Regiment being 6th July 1915.
Hope this is of interest or stimulates debate
Regards
Andy

[Mike Jones]

Morning Andy,
Sorry for the delay in replying. From what you say it could be back to the drawing board. Pte. Patton's Worcester number, 28124 was not issued till late 1915. It does not seem to make sense. So you rekon his Star was issued by another regiment but the Clasp was authorised by the Worcesters? We shall have to see if that was unique. To get the clasp you had to get a specific form signed by someone with the rank of Sergeant or above, who confirmed you were there. At the moment he is excluded from the Gheluvelt Chargers list. We would not like to rob him of his place in history.
It seems Lars is not going to venture an opinion.
Many thanks Mike

[LarsA]

Sorry Mike! I thought I posted a reply on this, but it must have been a victim of the double-slash ban. I concur with Andys opinion, and have seen on other cards that clasps are issued (or date of entry corrected) when served by a later regiment after checking earlier service.

Pattons service records indicates that he did not serve with the Wordcesters until 1915, when the transfer is noted. If I remember correctly (can check, PlumPudding and pass on his service record if you want) he served with Duke of Cornwall's Light Infantry in 1914.

Edited: Checked his pension record and found a positive evidence that he was admitted to hospital 28.11.1914 for toncillitis, while serving with the 1st DCLI (his original regiment).

/Lars