Herbert Warder- Royal Worcs Regiment

[warder]

Hi trying to find out more information regarding my grandfather Herbert Warder born in Birmingham 1887. I understand that he was in the 7th Battalion and crossed to France on the 12th Aug 1914.I Have his medal card but not sure about much else.
Can anyone out there help please.
Anthea

[Kevin Lynott]

Anthea,
are you sure he wasn't a serving regular or recalled regular? the 7th was a Territorial battalion which sent its 1st line Bn to France on 31/3/15 and the 2nd line Bn on 25/5/16. More likely he was in the 2nd Bn which landed in France on 13/8/14. Was he from Sparkbrook by chance?

[warder]

great - thanks for your quick reply- I got the information about the 7th from my aunt's birth certificate in 1917 it says he was a sergeant in the 7th.
In 1914 he was a Tram Driver on my mother's certificate in Sparkbrook -so you could be right- any more information then !!.
So excited to hear about him.

[peter]

Hello Anthea,

I think your Grandfather could well be Pte. 8422 Herbert Warder of the 2nd Battalion Worcesters who sailed for France August 1914. He also has a second regimental number (203498) for the Worcesters so this could be where you get 7th Bn. from. If you go to the National Archives on line you can down load his Medal Index Card fo £3.50. Also on Ancestry.co.uk British Army Pension Records you will find a Herbert Warder. Again you need to pay for the information but Ancestry do a free trial period. The Regimental Magazine 'FIRM' had an article on Gheluvelt in the January 1965 issue and a group of known Gheluvelt survivors 31st October 1964 is pictured and amongst them is H. Warder. If you contact the Regimental museum at Norton Barracks they may be able to send you a photo copy for a small donation towards expenses. The contact number is 01905 35435.

Regards

Peter

[warder]

Thank you so much for your info- i have his medal card with the numbers you mention on so must be him,need to know now what the other details mean .I am a member of Ancestry and the only Herbert Warder is listed from Hatfield Heath Essex ,so dont think its him as he born in B'Ham -and yet my sister thought that he did have a good army pension !!.
Will get in touch with the FIRM magazine for a copy of the photo-again thanks- anymore information please.
I am not familiar with any details of the wars - so i will have to brush up on battles and such like.

[peter]

Anthea

On your Grandfathers MIC it will tell you what medals he would have received Victory, British and Star and in the bottom left hand the theatre of war first served in and date of entry therein. Did he have the 14 Star and does it give his date of entry? If you have his medals these will also have his army number on them and confirm this is your Grandfather. You will be able to read about Gheluvelt on this site, it will be the 93rd anniversary of the battle on the 31st of this month. He is on the Worcester Cathedral roll. If you can get to Worcester you will see his name together with the other men who sailed for France in Agust 1914 in the Cathedral.

Regards

Peter

[Kevin Lynott]

Anthea,
if it is the same man he reached the rank of CSM and was recalled from the reserve in August 1914. He saw action at Mons, The Marne, The Aisne, Ypres, Ploegsteert, The Somme, St Quentin, Arras and Cambrai and was twice WIA. He was discharged in February 1919 and lived at 15 Beechfield Rd, Sparkbrook.

[warder]

Hi Peter - so grateful for all your help- Theatre of war date is 12-8-14 and yes he does have a 14 star ??.
My cousin in Scotland has the medals- I am hoping to go soon and take a look and some photos and see what else he has on Herbert.
My husband is going to read all about Gheluvelt for me and give me the gist (us mere women eh !!).
Will try and get to Worcs this weekend and take a look at the roll of honour -so exciting.
I understand there was a dinner renunion in 1964 and as Herbert was still with us wondered if he went- would there be any photos do you think ?.
So many Q's Your a STAR.
Keep up the great work- so impressed.

[warder]

Hi Kevin- what a lot of information to digest- all those battles and WIA twice any information of those wounds -you say he reached CSM -is that ? Sergeant Major which would fit in with details on my aunt birth certificate.The address is also correct from other certificates I have.
When he was discharged would it have been on medical grounds or just served his time-would I be able to find papers to this effect.
As you will see from other replies I cannot find him with an army pension as yet does that mean he would not have had one ?.
This is all so interesting -never knew you could find out so much about an individual in short a short space of time.
Many thanks to you and the other forum users-looking forward to next communcation.

Anthea.

[peter]

Anthea

Your Grandfather would have been at the Luncheon for the Gheluvelt survivors which was held at The Star Hotel in the banqueting room. Also present were seven Gheluvelt survivors from the South Wales Borderers. His addres at that time (1964) was 156 fruit Hill Farm Road, Northfield, Birmingham, would this be correct? All these details are from the article in the Regimental Magazine 'FIRM' from January 1965. My own Grandfather was in the 2nd Bn. Worcesters and went to France at the same time as your Grandfather so they could have known each other. It's nice to be called a star but I'm just like you trying to find out more about my Grandfather and the real star is this forum where we can help one another with information we pick up in our quest. I have also gleaned new information from this correspondence for my data base on 2nd Bn. Worcesters at Gheluvelt, so thank you as well.

Regards

Peter

[warder]

Hi Peter I have been in touch regarding geting a copy of the Firm and yes he was at 156 fruit Hill Farm Road -just a year later he died very peacefully in his sleep, I remember him so well. Its great to hear our coresponance has been of help too. We are off the weekend down to Worcs to see the roll of honour taking my sister along as well.
Looking forward to any more information from you or anyone else , keep up the good work.
Anthea

[Kevin Lynott]

Anthea,
there were records of each man who served, unfortunately a lot of them were destroyed during the bombing of London in WW2. Your next port of call would be the National Archives at Kew to see if his records survived re his discharge and pension etc. I doubt he had a disability pension they were like hens teeth and the government departments involved found every reason not to award them.
Yes he was a Sgt Maj and with regard to his discharge he was probably recalled for hostilities only and being a senior man and having served throughout the war plus his age was released as soon as possible.

[warder]

Kevin- Ok thanks-at Kew would I be able to find out his full service history or will that come from the MOD -do you know when he became a Sgt Major ,I was told that Sgt major's came from the commisioned ranks only-is this not the case ?.

Also he was wounded twice -any idea when ,how and what ?.
Silly Q I think, but grandad always told us he was batman to Kitchener -
old man stories or truth ??.
Of to Worcester now -look forward to next instalment.
Anthea

[Kevin Lynott]

Anthea,
The military career of every soldier was recorded in great detail. His enlistment, postings, health, conduct and eventual discharge were all written down on official army forms. The forms used varied depending on the type of soldier Grandad was. On the other hand, the service records provide very little information on what the soldier actually did and where he went. They are often hard to read and full of army abbreviations and jargon, which you might need help to interpret. Copies of the various papers were kept in a single central file. A given man's file could contain very little or a great deal, depending on his circumstances and the various actions that thinned out the files once they were archived after the war.
Of the files that were not burned most were smoke or water damaged. The the surviving records have been microfilmed and are available to view at the National Archives. They are called the Burnt Series papers and are held in the WO363 classification. Microfilming and the damage has meant that in many cases the papers are not too legible. Some files contain only fragments of papers. This is the largest collection of army service records.
Luckily, two other sets of files had been extracted from the main archive, for pensions and other purposes. Together they add up to only a relatively small fraction of the existing records and a very small fraction of the original total. They have survived as the Unburnt Series WO364, with an additional sample in the Ministry of Pensions collection PIN26. They relate to men who had been discharged to pension (but it does not follow that if Grandad got a pension he is in here) and therefore do not in theory contain any files relating to soldiers who died. Generally the legibility of these papers is better than the Burnt ones. They are also held at the National Archives. The series WO363 and WO364 are on microfilm and PIN26 is in original form. They are freely available at the National Archives

[warder]

Kevin- Thanks sounds complicated, but looks like a trip to Kew next ,hope there is still more information though to come from forum members,regarding my other Q's.
Our trip to Worcester Catheral was a lovely moment seeing his name on the roll and the flag, the staff were very helpful I must say esecially as there was a celebation takin place for Faulkland soldiers and Trafalgar, and there were lots of people for them to take care of.
Keep up the great work .
Anthea