D.C.M

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D.C.M

Postby allanp » Thu Nov 29, 2007 9:37 pm

Whilst looking through the Worcester Herald for the 7th August 1915, I found an entry for D.C.M’s, One of which I thought may interest the Forum Members. I have reproduced it below. One question, was a D.C.M the appropriate commendation?

Pte J. Williams 1st Battalion 10 May 1915 Rouges Bancs

When he went out on several occasions in front of our lines, exposed to a heavy fire and at great personal risk, and bought in 11 men of another regiment who had been lying out since the morning of 9 May. Later Pte Williams reconnoitred a sap over open ground between the lines and found over 60 wounded men. In conjunction with Corporal Frazier he organised a rescue party of volunteers and during the afternoon and night they bought in 80 more wounded men.

Awarded a clasp

Pte E. Frazier 10 May 1915 Rouges Bancs.
Awarded Distinguished Conduct Medal in “Gazette” dated June 30 1915. The name was incorrectly shown therein as “Frazer”.

Allan
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Brave Deeds

Postby Mike Jones » Fri Dec 14, 2007 3:44 am

Hello Allan,
To hear of such brave deeds makes one feel humble. I get your drift and also wonder if he should have got more than a Distinguished Conduct Medal (D.C.M.). The story is told in detail in Captain Stacke's book on page 70. It explains more clearly how bad the situation was and the desperate plight of the wounded men. The men had laid out wounded on the battlefield and were still being shelled. Stacke actually says the wounded men "Were signalling pitifully for help". Maybe Pte. Williams 13588 and Cpl. Frazier 10690 got their reward, as they both survived the war. Pte. Williams became a Sgt. in the Machine Gun Corps but Frazier stayed in the Worcesters.
My main computer is not working at the moment and normal e/mail is not possible. So if you have been e/mailing me and not got a reply, sorry. I do not expect to have normal service till the new year.
Best Regards Mike
Last edited by Mike Jones on Thu Jan 10, 2008 11:13 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby allanp » Fri Dec 14, 2007 9:25 pm

Hi Mike
I agree, maybe to survive was their reward for such bravery. Email me when you are back on line, I've completed the Casualty list for 1915.

May I wish you and all members a Merry Christmas.
Regards Allan
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Postby beardie » Sun Dec 30, 2007 1:32 pm

hello allan,
now you have completed the list of 1915, i was wondering how the men of the 4th worcesters killed /wounded on 6th august 15 at krisha vineyard were reported in the worcester herald. were the list of killed /wounded broken up over so many weeks?
beardie
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Postby allanp » Mon Dec 31, 2007 8:49 pm

Hi Beardie

I have found that it usually takes about 4 weeks for the casualty lists to reach Blighty and be reported in the Worcester Herald. My Great Uncle was reported wounded on the 11 May 1915 and reported in the Worcester Herald on the 22 May 1915. I have looked through the lists for you and have found the following.

I checked from the 6 August to the 28th August and found what was usually described by B.E.F High Command as “a quite time” 23 Killed, 31 Wounded, 12 Wounded & Missing.

During September 1915 the 4 th Battalions casualties figures rise significantly. The information below is only that which is reported as the 4th Battalion. There are other names recorded only as the Worcestershire Regiment, so this may not be the complete number of casualties for August 1915. Please also remember that this may not be the total list as we are finding that some names are recorded in different local and national news papers.

4th September 1915 Died of Wounds 6, Wounded 37, Wounded & Missing 10. No reports of Killed
11th September 1915 Died of Wounds 4, Wounded 127, Killed 2.
18th September 1915 Killed 28, Died of Wounds 3, Wounded 19, Wounded & Missing 4, Missing 234.
25th September 1915 Killed 2, Died of Wounds 5, Died 1, Wounded 8, Missing 92

If you are looking for anyone special, give me his name and number and I will search my list for you.

Regards Allan
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Postby beardie » Tue Jan 01, 2008 3:13 pm

thankyou allan for all yer work! :D

the attack on the vineyard has always interested me, with over 800 going over the top and only a couple of dozen coming back :cry:

i have couple of names to check!

21199 pte samson hill m.m. of the 4th worcesters listed in the times wounded in dec 15
5157 joseph nicholls m.m. of the 4th worcesters
don't know rank, he finished the war as a csm, he died in 1919

thanks again
beardie
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Postby allanp » Tue Jan 01, 2008 5:40 pm

Hi Beardie

There is no mention of 5157 J Nicholls in 1915 but I have found 21198 Pte S.G. Hill reported wounded in the 1st January 1916 lists. The difference in the number may just be a reporting error. You're lucky I only did this last night. I will let you know if I find the mention of his MM. May take some time though.

Regards Allan
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Postby beardie » Tue Jan 01, 2008 8:45 pm

thanks allan again,
this is the information i have on pte hill !

gideon samson hill was born jul aug sept quarter 1898 !

because of his age, he enlisted in stourbridge a few miles from home and swapped round his forenames!

he landed in gallipoli 7th sept. 1915
the times 31 dec 1915 lists him as wounded

he was awarded the mm in the london gazette 14th jan 1918 page 837

21199 pte samson gideon hill mm of the 4th worcesters was killed in action 14th oct 1918 aged 20

can anyone give me a rough date of enlistment from his number?

thanks
beardie
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The Cover up.

Postby Mike Jones » Tue Jan 01, 2008 9:56 pm

Hi Allan,
I too wondered what the official version of the August 1915 casualty figures would be. I wondered if the public would be given the true picture. It now looks to have been a spectacular Cover up. It was actually the worst month in the whole war for the Worcesters. The deaths even eclipsed the figures for July 1916 (The battle of the Somme). You say the Worcester Herald reports 23 killed and 43 wounded. The killed alone was a minimum 614 men . The single worst day was the 6th of August 1915, when the 4th Battalion lost at least 360 dead. Ninety of the bravest men (Who got furthest forward) were taken prisoner. Most of whom suffered a long lingering death by neglect and malnutrition. This is the day Steve was asking about, at krithia Vineyard. Incidentally, the two men you suspect of being brothers Frank and William Haynes, 23006 and 23007. They were killed on this day but only reported "Missing" on the 18th of September !
Best Regards Mike
Last edited by Mike Jones on Thu Jan 10, 2008 11:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby allanp » Wed Jan 02, 2008 2:28 pm

Hi Mike

I think that your suspicions about a cover up are probably correct. As the Worcester Herald would have been a local paper, this would probable have been one of the main sources of information for the families/ local people. In most issues I have looked at so far, there is always a recruiting advert. For the young men to see a broadsheet page containing hundreds of dead, wounded & missing from the local Regiment would have had a dramatic effect on the lads volunteering.
I have my suspicions that the casualties were probable spread across the 3 local papers to reduce the impact. This is something that I will look at over 1 month and see if the same men are reported.

I have checked October, November and December to see if the casualty figues were trickeled in over these months but there are no significant reports.

Regards Allan
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Postby beardie » Thu Feb 14, 2008 4:57 pm

next time i'm in the stourbridge library i will check the county express to see if they listed the causalties for 6/8/15.
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