1/7 Worcesters - When did he enlist?

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1/7 Worcesters - When did he enlist?

Postby jaybeebuzz » Sun Jan 20, 2008 11:53 am

Hi
I'm trying to get some idea of when a soldier enlisted with the 1/7th Worcesters. I appreciate that regimental numbers are by no means an exact science and contain many anomalies but just wondered if someone with more knowledge than myself might be able to share their thoughts.

Pte Sydney Randolph Pinchin was born April 1896 (d.9/10/17). His medal card does not give a theatre of war or date of entry. (I am told that a date of entry is rarely given if after 1916, but does this mean after 31/12/15 or after 31/12/16?). That might give me one pointer!

His regimental number was 203963 and he does not appear to have had a lower number prior to that (therefore I take it he wasn't re-numbered).

He was awarded the Victory and British medal (roll no. L/102 B23 p4985), but not the 1914-15 star.

Are we able to deduce an approx enlistment year from this information?

Many thanks!
Julie
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Postby Mike Jones » Sun Jan 20, 2008 11:31 pm

Hello Julie,
I accept that I am a strange man, I still live in the old fashioned world these men fought and died for. A world where we knew who we were talking to and where they came from. I am Mike Jones from Kent. I never normally answer any query where I do not know these basic facts. I dont want your e/mail address or the road you live in, just the county. I have explained this before in various posts, e.g. to Hilsel and Bob Downes. I can answer most of your questions. If you would like to edit your registration, then I will open my data-bases.
Regards Mike
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Postby jaybeebuzz » Sun Jan 20, 2008 11:50 pm

I'm very sorry Mike but I really don't know what I've done wrong? If you're referring to my user name then I'm happy to change it except I don't know how and I've tried to PM you but it won't let me.

Julie (stumped!)
from Shropshire
Last edited by jaybeebuzz on Mon Jan 21, 2008 10:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Mike Jones » Mon Jan 21, 2008 12:31 am

Hello Julie,
You have not done any thing wrong. This is not my website. I am just a visitor here but I have my own settings. I dont mind what someone uses as an Avatar, so long as they finish the post with a real name and register with a location. Where possible I e/mail people and ask them but in your case that was not possible. You have given me the chance to explain myself, maybe other enquirers will see this and get the hint.
Now you have ticked the right boxes, the good news. Your man Sydney R. Pinchin enlisted on or very near to 10th December 1915. Details for entry into a theatre of war ceased to be entered on 31st December 1915. A man entering a war zone after this got no additional campaign medals. It has always amazed me but some men, such as Pte. Pinchin, fought in the battle of the Somme and got no medal for it. You are right, he was not re-numbered. The sequence he is in was for new recruits only.
Regards Mike
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Postby jaybeebuzz » Mon Jan 21, 2008 10:09 am

Mike

Many thanks for that information, I really wasn't expecting an answer that specific! You've been a great help, thank you! :D

Julie
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Pte. Pinchin

Postby Mike Jones » Tue Jan 22, 2008 3:06 am

Hi Julie,
Yours is an interesting problem and requires some thinking about. I have now spent some hours going through my records. I have already learnt some new things and hope to learn some more. You will be on information overload soon, so slow down and think through what you have already learnt. Just to give you a bit more to ponder on.
Of the men issued with a 203000 sequence number, 195 of them died. Only 81 of them were in the 1/7th Bn., the rest were spread among the other battalions. The first to die wa Pte. Thompson 203567, who died 4.2.1917.. So although most of the numbers went to men enlisting late 1915 and into 1916. The men did not become active till at the earliest January 1917. Of the men who survived 108 got Silver War Badges. The earliest date for a discharge of these men was September 1917. Again points to the men not being active till 1917. I wont hit you with anymore information at the moment but just to throw a spanner in the works, 203537 Pearce enlisted in 1908 and 203634 enlisted in 1911 !
Regards Mike
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Postby jaybeebuzz » Tue Jan 22, 2008 12:13 pm

Hi Mike

Thank you very much for the considerable amount of time you have already spent on this subject. I really appreciate your time and efforts on this.

When I first posted I had the feeling the question I was asking wasn't going to be easy to answer, having read your past posts on the numbering of the Worcester territorial btns. This was why I was initially so surprised you could give me such a precise date!

Anyway, now my bubble's been well and truly burst, I just wondered if the Derby Scheme would have had any bearing on the allocation of these numbers? I have come across a soldier 203974 Pte. Herbert Bingham who I'm told enlisted under the Derby Scheme, 11-12-1915 but wasn't called up until up 2-3-1917 because he worked in the steel industry. Sydney was apparently employed at a local factory in Pinvin that made agricultural thresher machines. I'm not so sure that would have been considered a reserved occupation though and enough to delay his call up! I'd welcome your thoughts on this!

Many thanks!
Julie Burroughs
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Research

Postby Mike Jones » Tue Jan 22, 2008 1:06 pm

Hi Julie,
I am taking my own advice, slowing down and trying to absorb some of this new information ! Through your question, I have learnt a lot. I think more slowly now I am old. I must admit I thought all these men were "Derby" men. I am 99.9% sure Sydney Pinchin was. On now looking very closely at this 203000 sequence of numbers, I found a few men who could NOT be "Derby" men. Such as the 1908 and 1911 enlistment men. I have now looked at the original documents , to make sure there was no typing errors when transcribed onto the computer. There are no errors. There is also a group who enlisted in 1914. These men could not have been given 203000 sequence numbers that early. These numbers were not even contemplated at this stage. They must have had other numbers to start with or been transferred in. They are an incidental to Sydney Pinchin though. I am still giving it a lot of thought and checking.
Regards Mike
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Postby Steve Beeby » Tue Jan 22, 2008 8:10 pm

Hi, Mike.

Steve Beeby from Peterborough here...

I'm the one who gave Julie the advice on the Worcestershire Regiment man, Herbert Bingham, whose number was fairly close to Sydney Pinchin's number. I'm not a Worcestershire Regiment researcher, but I do have an interest in Regimental numbering, both from the point of view of my own research into the Northamptonshire Regiment, and the bigger scheme of things.

I sourced the information I gave Julie from the WO363 series of Service papers that are now becoming available on Ancestry. Like you, I am trying to build up a database of my own Regiment, and I am always interested in the larger scheme of things. Thus, I have tried to help other people's queries, and, with the aid of the currently available Service Records, I am starting to see some very promising patterns emerging.

I have also done some prior research using the Silver War Badge Rolls, which no doubt you use yourself, and have found that these have tended to confuse matters, especially with deferred call-ups as in the case of Derby Scheme men and some conscripts, where the date on the roll refers to Attestation date and the number issue date is the date of mobilsation. I have resigned myself to the SWB Roll enlistment dates being of limited value in assessing enlistment/call-up dates.

I too am confident that Sydney Pinchin was a "Derby" man, and the date of attestation of December 1915 is looking good... The only thing that does concern me, as Julie has mentioned, is the gap between his attestation (age 19 in December 1915, and his call up at age 20 c. March 1917). The only things I can think of that would delay him for that amount of time are his profession/trade &/or his health.

My belief in March 1917 being the date of his call-up stems from my experience in looking at several other Regiments numbering systems that, in general, have far less crazy anomalies than I first thought.

I, too, await your thoughts with interest!

Thanks for listening.
Steve.

P.S. I see that the 1908 (No. 11168, later 203537) and 1911 (20582, later 203634) enlistments mentioned both have earlier number, (Regular series numbers, I believe) that could explain the discrepancies in time. I would have thought that the 20582 number seems more like Christmas 1914 issue, however!
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Researching

Postby Mike Jones » Wed Jan 23, 2008 1:40 pm

Hello Steve,
We are following the same path but you are a long way in front of me ! I have been reading some of your work on the Great War Forum. I have learnt a lot from you, for which I would like to thank you for sharing your knowledge so freely. As a result of this website, lots of doors have opened to me and new documents come to light all the time. Making some of my older conclusions obsolete. As a result of the question about Pte. Pinchin, I had to re-look at things from another angle. Its how we learn. Like you I have many projects on but will give Sydney Pinchin some thought over the next few days.
When I started researching it seemed to me the numbering system was a completely unorganised lottery. I soon realised it is very organised and follows a pattern. In most cases that pattern is followed by other regiments. The bit I struggle with most at the moment is that 20,000 sequence of numbers. No number above 10,000 was used twice in the Worcesters. Except for the 20k series. Not just twice, many were used three times, e.g. 20204 + 20377 + 20726. There are loads more examples but no point. 20216 was used 4 times. The sequence seems to be a transit camp for men moving within the regiment.
Many thanks Steve from Mike
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