Pte J W Naylor 8060

This section of the forum is for any enquires relating the the First World War covering the dates 1914 to 1920.

Moderators: Kevin Lynott, peter, LarsA

Pte J W Naylor 8060

Postby TMN » Sun Dec 04, 2011 6:20 pm

Hello,

I'm trying to find out any information about my Great Uncle, who was in the 1st/8th Bn of the Worcestershire Regiment and is buried at Etaples military cemetery in France.
From the CWG website and a 1923 copy of The War Graves Of The British Empire, I know that he died of wounds on 14th October 1917, age 32.
A native of Kates Hill, Dudley, Worcestershire (now West Midlands), he was married to Sarah Ann, and the son of William and Teresa.

I have no more to go on, but would like to find out when he joined up, where he served, and any records of when/how he was wounded.
Any information or pointers to where I could find information would be very gratefully received.

Many thanks in advance,

TMN
TMN
 
Posts: 7
Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2011 6:09 pm
Location: Shropshire

Re: Pte J W Naylor 8060

Postby scully » Mon Dec 05, 2011 9:45 pm

Hi,

Private James William Naylor (8060) enlisted at Dudley. He entered the Theatre of War on the 12th August 1914, landing in France. He died of wounds on the 14th October 1917 whilst serving with the 1/8th Battalion Worcestershire Regiment. The 1/8th Battalion Worcestershire Regiment did not go to France until the 30th march 1915, so he must have been with another Worcestershire Battalion when he first went over at the start of the war.

He was most likely wounded in action during the BATTLE OF POELCAPPELLE (October 1917). Some brief details below:

The 1/7th and 1/8th Worcestershire Regiment had marched forward on the 7th October 1917 from Dambre Camp to the canal bank north of Ypres. There the two Battalions lay in dugouts until the night (October 8th/9th) before the battle. Then in darkness and pouring rain the 144th Brigade moved forward.

The 1/8th Worcestershire, commanded by Major J. P. Bate, M.C., after reaching Springfield at midnight, had rested until the attack had started. Then the Battalion moved forward across the Stroembeek to a position below the spur at Winchester Farm. By that time the enemy's guns were putting down a heavy barrage along the line of the Stroembeek, and the rear company of the Battalion ( "B" Company) suffered severely.

Bad as was the position on the right flank of the attack, that on the left flank was even worse. The attack of the 1/4th Gloucestershire had been stopped dead in front of "Oxford Houses," and the first orders received by the l/8th Worcestershire were to send help in that direction. At 7.5 a.m. "D" Company were sent forward to gain touch with the 1/4th Gloucestershire and attack Oxford Houses. "D" Company advanced into line with the Gloucestershire platoons, but in that wilderness of shell-holes it was impossible to find the Gloucestershire headquarters and arrange a concerted attack. Attempts were made to dribble small parties forward and to.use rifle-grenades against the hostile defences, but in the face of the enemy's fire those attempts failed. At 11.30 a.m. came the messages already described from the 1/7th Worcestershire asking for assistance against "Inch Houses," "B" Company of the 1/8th Worcestershire advanced to their assistance, reached the support line of the 1/7th Worcestershire, pushed on past Adler Farm and came into action; but no further advance was possible. The enemy's fire was unsubdued and the British barrage also wa's bursting close in front. Clearly nothing could be done without more effective artillery support. Messages were sent back and, after the inevitable delay, a fresh attack was organised. "A" Company of the 1/8th Worcestershire was sent up to support "D" Company in a renewed attack on "Oxford Houses." At 5 p.m. "D" Company, collected and reorganised, got into position at "County Cross- Roads." Behind them "A" Company followed in support, The artillery opened a barrage fire on "Oxford Houses" and "D" Company advanced. The advance was met by machine-gun fire both from the front and from shell-holes on both flanks. One of the two officers with "D" Company was shot dead and the other fell wounded. The Company gained some 70 yards and had nearly reached a German block-house when a fresh burst of machine-gun fire shot down most of the two leading platoons and forced the rest to cover in the surrounding shell-holes. The two surviving sergeants discussed the situation. They decided that the attack could still succeed if only some covering fire could be brought to bear on the machine-guns which were enfilading their advance. A corporal and two runners volunteered to go back with this message, but they were shot down on their way back. The desperate situation was nearly retrieved by Private W. Chesterton who with a bomb in his hand crawled forward alone to attack the block-house. He actually got within a few yards of it and was on the point of throwing his bomb when he was seen and shot dead. His brave act so scared the enemy that they evacuated the block-house and ran back; but the flanking machine-guns stopped any attempt by "D" Company to advance, and presently the Germans returned to their position.

Regards,
Louis (webmaster)
scully
Site Admin
 
Posts: 656
Joined: Sun Sep 24, 2006 3:24 pm
Location: Surrey

Re: Pte J W Naylor 8060

Postby Mike Jones » Tue Dec 06, 2011 9:57 am

Hello,
Pte. James Naylor went to France with the 3rd Bn. on 12th August 1914. I suspect he was wounded early on and got medically downgraded. Allan Parry (Expert on Casualty lists) may be able to confirm any wounding. The Regimental Number he had was not intended to be used by men in the Territorial Bn.'s.
I have a nominal roll of the 1/8th Bn. and he was in "D" company.
Regards Mike Jones
Mike Jones
Mike Jones
 
Posts: 325
Joined: Mon Sep 25, 2006 12:00 am
Location: Kent

Re: Pte J W Naylor 8060

Postby corona » Tue Dec 06, 2011 11:41 am

Hi,
An interesting additionial piece of information concerning Pte.James William Naylor has him serving in the Worcesters before.
As 7723 he attested on 30th March 1902 and posted to the 1st Batt. 18th April 1902.
Having served for only 90 days he claimed his discharge ,his mother Teresa Naylor, paying the necessary £10.
Regards,
corona
corona
 
Posts: 158
Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2011 12:36 pm

Re: Pte J W Naylor 8060

Postby John(txic) » Tue Dec 06, 2011 6:19 pm

TMN,

You may be pleased to learn that your Gt Uncle's name is recorded on Dudley's Great War Memorial' located in the town centre.
John(txic)
 
Posts: 26
Joined: Sun May 15, 2011 4:36 pm
Location: The Land of the Sabbath and of the Priest

Re: Pte J W Naylor 8060

Postby gilbo139 » Tue Dec 06, 2011 6:55 pm

Hello, Reference Scullys' narrative, about two years ago I took a number of photos of the area and I know I have one of 'county cross roads'....the area is much the same as it was pre 1914,some tracks now roads and some roads wider but nearly all in the same location with the land mainly used for agricultural purposes. there is now no sign of what happened in that area ,no memorials or remains of dug outs but you're more than welcome to see the snaps if you're interested to see where your grandad fought. Regards Colin
gilbo139
 
Posts: 68
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2011 7:13 pm
Location: Worcester

Re: Pte J W Naylor 8060

Postby TMN » Tue Dec 06, 2011 7:25 pm

Thankyou everyone for the replies, which answer so many questions, but also raise so many more!

Louis,
Thankyou for taking the time to type all of that out, which makes a sad but fascinating read.
We never knew that he had been in France since 1914. With the life expectancy of troops during the war, we had expected to find out that he had not been there long, so that came as a bit of a shock!
From the basic research we have done we suspected that might have been the battle where he was wounded, and your comments add strength to that.
If he was injured there, but buried at Etaples (where we know there were a number of hospitals) would you have any idea how long it would have taken to move the injured to the hospitals? Assuming he was being taken there, we are just trying to get some idea of timeline, and (I know we'll very likely never know) try and work out if he did make it to Etaples, or died beforehand.

Mike Jones,
Thankyou for the information regarding his Regimental Number and his company, which when reading what Louis has said gives us a better insight into his last few days.
Going back to earlier in the war, if he had been wounded before 1917 we would be grateful of any information that could be found surrounding this, and his 'movements' between 1914 and 1917.
We had started to wonder if the name on the Worcester Cathedral 2nd & 3rd Battalion Nominal Roll (1914) of J.Naylor was actually him or not. I had been told since a child that it was him (even though it was down as J.Naylor and not JW Naylor, but since we started researching doubts were creeping in. From what you say then there is a very good chance it is him then?

Corona,
May I ask your source for this information please?
This is something no-one in the family has ever mentioned before, so as well as being a complete surprise we are now starting to wonder what the circumstances were.
The two Regimental Numbers do not seem to be very far apart, even though there are twelve years between his first and second enlistments - is this normal or what could have lead to this?

John(txic),
I have seen his name on the Great War Memorial at the Town Hall buildings, albeit through the seemingly always closed railings!
He is also on the Memorial at St Johns church, Kates Hill, Dudley, but due to the theft of the plates some years ago from the lych gate, the replacements were put up inside the, now sadly closed, church. I hope one day to be able to get permission to get inside the church (which has many many family links) and photograph the plates.


Again, thankyou all for your quick responses and information, and we apologise for asking even more questions!

TMN
TMN
 
Posts: 7
Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2011 6:09 pm
Location: Shropshire

Re: Pte J W Naylor 8060

Postby TMN » Tue Dec 06, 2011 7:31 pm

Gilbo139,
Sorry I didn't reply to you in my last post - I think we were typing at the same time!
I would very much like to see any photo's of the area - would you have them in a format that you could e-mail please?

Thanks in advance,

TMN
TMN
 
Posts: 7
Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2011 6:09 pm
Location: Shropshire

Re: Pte J W Naylor 8060

Postby corona » Wed Dec 07, 2011 10:48 am

Hi,
You can find the 4 pages of infomation on his first enlistment on the pay for site FIND MY PAST.
He was discharged as the result of having claimed it on payment of £10 within 3 months of enlistment.
Regards,
corona
corona
 
Posts: 158
Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2011 12:36 pm

Re: Pte J W Naylor 8060

Postby Mike Jones » Wed Dec 07, 2011 11:10 am

Hi,
It is definitely your Great-Uncle listed on The Worcester Cathedral Embarkation Roll. But if you look again, you will see it does say Naylor J.W..
My main project at the moment is those very Embarkation Rolls. I am trying to put full names Regimental numbers and the destiny of each man. Four years work so far. Trying to finish it by 2014. The 100th Anniversary. But I do have your G/Uncle listed.
By the way what makes you think he enlisted in 1914? Is that family history or an assumption? I have two other possible dates down for him. I am pretty sure he was Mobilized in 1914 but was already in the army.
Regards Mike
Mike Jones
Mike Jones
 
Posts: 325
Joined: Mon Sep 25, 2006 12:00 am
Location: Kent

Re: Pte J W Naylor 8060

Postby TMN » Wed Dec 07, 2011 7:49 pm

Corona,
Thanks for that, I'll check that website out.

Mike Jones,
Thankyou for confirming it is his name at Worcester.
I was working from the photograph on this website and it appears to state J. Naylor, but hopefully in a few weeks time we will be going to see it in person, it's been far too many years since I last went to see it.
The enlistment date of 1914 was an assumption on my part based on what Scully wrote earlier in this thread, if he was in longer than that could that explain how close the two Regimental Numbers for him are, as given by Corona earlier. Can you let me know what the other possible enlistment dates are please?
Good luck with your project - is this going to be published in a book when finished?

Having spoken to my mother after all of your kind replies, there is a suspicion that he may have left the Regiment the first time after his fathers death, but at present this is pure hear-say and assumption - more work needed on my part to track this down!

Thankyou again everyone for taking the time to pass on the information, and helping us (my wife and myself) to start putting together the pieces.
If anyone has any more that they are willing to pass on, we would be very grateful.

TMN
TMN
 
Posts: 7
Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2011 6:09 pm
Location: Shropshire

Re: Pte J W Naylor 8060

Postby gilbo139 » Wed Dec 07, 2011 7:53 pm

tmn,
Will willingly e mail some photos but to comply with site protocol there must be a specific way to disclose your e mail address and I'm a technophobe and can't work out how to let you have mine so can anyone advise please.... thanks
Colin
gilbo139
 
Posts: 68
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2011 7:13 pm
Location: Worcester

Re: Pte J W Naylor 8060

Postby TMN » Wed Dec 07, 2011 8:29 pm

Thanks gilbo139,
I have no idea how (or if) the private message system works on here - can anyone help?

Thanks,

TMN
TMN
 
Posts: 7
Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2011 6:09 pm
Location: Shropshire

Re: Pte J W Naylor 8060

Postby allanp » Mon Dec 12, 2011 10:22 am

Hi

I have checked the Casualty lists in the Worcester Herald and I have found the following:-

21 November 1914 edition
Wounded
8060 Pte J. Naylor

17 November 1917
Died of Wounds
8060 Pte J. W. Naylor – Dudley

Regards Allan
12631 Lance Sergt George William Hill. KIA Vimy Ridge, 28 April 1916 3rd Battalion
allanp
 
Posts: 265
Joined: Thu Nov 16, 2006 10:51 pm
Location: Bromsgrove Worcestershire

Re: Pte J W Naylor 8060

Postby TMN » Mon Dec 12, 2011 2:48 pm

gilbo139:
Many thanks for e-mailing the photo's, very much appreciated.

allanp:
Thankyou for finding that out for us, it gives us even more to try and find answers to now!
We had never heard of him being wounded the first time, but it does not come as a surprise if he was in the front line.

The pieces are starting to come together now, much quicker than expected thanks to everyone on here who has been so very helpful. and generous with information, thank you all.


Once we have got as far as we can, we'll be trying to trace the movements of my Grandfather, which will be even harder as we don't have a regimental number for him, but assume he also served in the Worcesters
TMN
 
Posts: 7
Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2011 6:09 pm
Location: Shropshire

Next

Return to First World War

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests